Episode 058 – Vindication Day Special (Pirates in Neverland: The Michael Jackson Allegations)

As far back as he can remember, Ryan Michaels was a Michael Jackson fan. He was just five years old when the Dangerous album came out but vividly remembers watching the Black or White music video upon its release in America. In his teenage years he became an active member of the Michael Jackson internet fan community where, in his 20s, he got to know Charles Thomson.

After Michael’s death, Ryan withdrew somewhat from the fan community. Today he lives in Tokyo, where he works for several companies and, in his spare time, hosts the podcast Reason Bound. The show is all about logic and critical thought; what people believe, why they believe it and the importance of being able to recognise good and bad arguments. Each week he and a guest discuss these points in relation to a particular hot topic.

Charles’ life also now revolves around logic and critical thought. Since Michael’s death he has become an award-winning newspaper journalist, investigating issues and weighing evidence on a daily basis, in addition to regularly reporting on criminal trials.

A few months back, Ryan invited his old friend Charles onto Reason Bound. He appeared in episode seven, where they discussed the justice system and the importance of preserving the presumption of innocence. Given their history, the two of them naturally referred to the Michael Jackson trial several times during the show.

August 16, 2004 – MJ attends the pretrial hearings, escorted by LaToya and Janet.

After the recording was finished, Ryan felt there was a lot more to be said about the Michael Jackson case. He invited Charles back onto the show to do something neither of them had ever seen done before – to record a podcast where the two of them would discuss the child abuse allegations leveled at Michael Jackson during the latter half of his career – from their inception in 1993 through to his 2005 trial – within the context of Reason Bound’s usual parameters; looking at what people believe, why they believe it, and the importance of being able to recognise good and bad arguments. They would discuss the evidence in an unemotional way, testing the theories and arguments of bother Michael Jackson’s fans and his detractors.

June 13, 2005 – The Jackson Family leaves the court after the veredict.

Given Charles’ continuing work with The MJCast, Jamon and Q were given a sneak preview loved the show so much they decided they wanted to air it too. So for the second time in The MJCast’s history we are simulcasting with another show. We are proud to present, for our third annual Vindication Day Special, episode 10 of Reason Bound, titled ‘Pirates in Neverland: The Michael Jackson Allegations’.

The show goes live today on both The MJCast’s channel and Reason Bound’s. We thank Ryan for working with us on this episode and we encourage you to head over to iTunes and check out some more of his thought-provoking episodes.

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If you have any thoughts, opinions, or feedback on the show, we’d love to hear from you. Contact us at themjcast@icloud.com or find the links to our many social networks on www.themjcast.comMichael On!

22 Replies to “Episode 058 – Vindication Day Special (Pirates in Neverland: The Michael Jackson Allegations)”

  1. darryll

    What you said at the beginning about looking at sleeping in Michael’s bed differently as an adult
    proves Michael’s point perfectly. People lose their innocence at a certain age their minds are filled
    with filthy images they associate with a man and a child sleeping on a bed (especially if it’s a man not a woman I might add, which quite a double standard) and you can no longer see it as innocent.

    But Michael could. That’s what made him different than most adults and no doubt that ability was connected to his creativity
    and kindness. As Sophia Loren said he looked at the world with the purity and innocence of a child
    even when he was an adult. Few adults will understand that so they persecuted him.

    They told him he should look at the sleepovers as they do he too should see the sexual
    aspect of it. And when he was not willing to accept that they destroyed him.

    If every man was like Michael this wouldn’t even be an issue as it would
    be a world without pedophiles and predators and every child would be treated
    by every adult like they are their own children. it would be a totally different
    world. A better one.

    The Arvizos kept saying that Michael’s love and support helped cure Gavin. Who knows.
    Michael believed in that the world laughed at that. Sad to see you are doing the same.

    Lot of kids had fun having sleepovers with Michael. That’s why they wanted it. They followed him like ducks.
    They wanted to be with him day and night. Life is short and tough if he made those kids’ life happier
    so be it. I doubt the Cascio kids or Brett Barnes will ever regret having hundreds of sleepovers with Michael.
    Clearly they were not harmed in any way. No one was.
    People should focus on real predators not harp on silly sleepovers.

    Reply
  2. Hammer

    Wow so many half-truths and outright lies in this.

    1. Michael never said that that’s how we’re gonna heal the world by sleeping with kids. When asked why he let Gavin sleep in his bed he said that the world need more love and caring. Gavin had cancer, was weak had a bald head MJ believed making him happy helps him heal and Gavin kept nagging him, he wanted a sleepover with him. Frank Cascio described the whole scene in his book. read it. He was there. It was not Michael who wanted to sleep with Gavin at all. In fact he turned to Frank and told him they cannot stay the mother is fucked up.
    Gavin kept begging and Michael simply didn’t have the heart to turn him away. They told him he was dying, what was he supposed to do? He allowed him to sleep there out of kindness. What is so difficult to understand about it? If it had been a woman and a little girl no one would bat an eye. double standard. In fact Rose Fine Mj’s tutor who traveled with them when the Jackson Five was on tour behaved with little MJ in a similar fashion. Reading stories to Michael giving him warm milk, calling him son even letting him stay in her room. No one said it’s indefensible. Why would it be different with Michael? And it’s not insane to assume that when you help a family during their darkest hour and help someone who has cancer that family won’t turn around and stab you in the back.

    2 It’s not true that he did the same after Chandler what he did before Chandler. He never slept in a bed with Arvizo , never was with him alone either. He always had a third party around
    to ensure he could not be accused. But then the Arvizos simply made shit up. Including about
    Michael sleeping with Gavin in the upstairs bedroom Jesus Salas however testified that the Arvizos never stayed in that room, only downstairs. This is the Feb March 2003 period.
    Michael slept upstairs, the Arvizos slept in their guest house or downstairs, if they wanted to.
    There is no evidence Michael ever slept with the Arvizos even in the same room in Feb March 2003.
    .
    3. Neverland was big but the kids wanted to stay with Michael not in the guest houses. That’s the point. It was the kids who wanted sleepover with him not the other way around. MJ never initiated any of it. And because he slept with his brothers in a bed so many times for him having another kid on his bed was the same. It doesn’t matter how old he got. He looked at the situation the same way. What is so difficult to understand about that? Is it obligatory for everyone over 18 to have a sexual mind? If that’s the case then let’s make it illegal for any adult to share a bed or even a room with a child, Related or not doesn’t matter since relatives molest relatives all the time. It’s clear that MJ didn’t grow out of a lot of things why would he grow out of looking at bedsharing innocently like he did when he was 10? his behavior with Chandler and Barnes and the Cascios were eerily similar to how he behaved with Marlon Jackson when they were kids. Throw water balloons, watch cartoons, eat junk food and sleep in the same bed. Same thing. Sex was not part of the menu obviously with Marlon , neither was with Chandler or Barnes or Culkin or Cascio or Lennon or any other kid. In fact the kid who shared a bed with him most often between age 10 and 19 , Brett Barnes , call him my brother to this day. So did Emmanuel Lewis and Corey Feldman.

    4. MJ allowed PEOPLE to sleep in his room not just kids and certainly not just boys. Karen Faye said the everyone laid in Michael’s bed and she herself fell asleep there sometimes. Brett Barnes was 19 the last time he shared a bed with Michael. Clearly not a kid anymore. Does that make MJ gay? Hardly. Chantal Robson Karlee Barnes Alison V Smith Simone Jackson Nicole Richie Brandi Jackson were girls who had sleepover with him. So what does that prove? That he molested girls?
    MJ shared his room and bed with men women boys girls alike, anyone who wanted to stay there was allowed to, it was nothing but an act of kindness. Corey Feldman said that when he had sleepovers with MJ and there was only one bed in the room MJ insisted that Corey take it because he considered it impolite to take it himself. Now in light of that fact if you still don’t understand that he really allowed people sleep on his bed because he considered it the nice thing to do then something is wrong with you. He said the exact same thing about Arvizo: he gave him the bed, always give the best to the company. And yes all of that is connected to how he lived a child in that tiny house where being able to sleep in a bed was a big fucking deal. And when relatives visited giving them you bed was giving them the best you had.
    JC Agajanian whose kids also had sleepovers in Neverland but Michael never shared abed with his kids explained this an interview after Michael died.

    5. The “if it was any other man” argument is a fallacy. The very reason why those sleepovers happened in the first place was that those families and those kids wanted to be with MJ because he was Michael Jackson. He had a unique and magnetic personality, kids became attached to him easily, Paris once said he has so much positive energy you didn’t want to leave. June Chandler said “you are like Peter Pan everyone wants to be around you and spend 24 hours”. Frank Cascio said he and his brothers wanted to stay with him , it was like hanging out with your buddy , like having a slumber party and you cannot compare Michael to anyone else because he was really a child at heart. Why did Chantal and Wade Robson ask the very first night they were in Neverland “Please please can we stay with Michael? ” Why did Jordan Chandler nag his mother to allow him stay in MJ’s room? Why did Brett Barnes want to have sleepover with him? If you can’t answer that question you cannot understand why those sleepovers happened at all.

    Clearly your bullshitting over this bedsharing issue is further evidence that MJ was too good for this rotten world.

    Reply
    1. Aloha

      I’ve copied and pasted this from my main comment in case you don’t read it

      “For those who don’t get why the bed thing is a problem, a few things.

      1 – When someone is accused of a crime, you need to look for motive, means and opportunity. If you are sleeping with children, alone, at night, when they’re vulnerable (and they are, in PJ’s in close proximity to an unrelated adult), and you have a house that’s very attractive to them, that gives you the means, and the opportunity to do such a thing. He didn’t do it, BUT, to law enforcement and outsiders, it looks really, really dicey.

      2 – Boundaries. Children need to understand healthy boundaries, just because Michael wasn’t going to do anything to the kids, that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t have. By showing these kids that it’s ok to be off, sequestered, with an adult, in a vulnerable position, he wasn’t exactly setting them up to be safe with others.

      It’s all a bit like how a teacher hugging a child isn’t allowed, not because anyone is going to hurt anyone, but it can lead to misunderstandings, and it teaches the child that it’s ok for an authority figure to have close physical contact. Given how many genuine predators take jobs around kids, it’s a dangerous precedent to set really.

      3 – Misunderstandings. How many times have any of us slept in a bed with a friend, on a plane next to someone and woken up with our arm over them, right up close or leaning on their shoulder or whatever? An arm being positioned somewhere in sleep for example could lead to a gross misunderstanding. Lets just say for example if he had been sleeping in a bed with a child, and in sleep, TOTALLY ACCIDENTALLY had his arm across them near their crotch and their parent had walked in to wake them up and seen that, what then? Or the child had felt they were being touched? Do we still think bed sharing was smart? Endless opportunities for misunderstandings and accidents here.

      4 – MJ making himself vulnerable. Like my first point, a child in that position with MJ gave the perfect scenario for him to be accused in.

      It’s not about people thinking bed = sex, it’s all the other stuff that goes with that. People will say that “well in other places xyz isn’t a problem”, I would rebut with asking how good sexual abuse and false allegation safeguarding is in those places. Rules and boundaries are created for a reason, to keep kids and adults safe, not just to appease cultural prudishness.”

      I think you’re over simplifying it to people thinking bed = sex. There’s more to it than that. What MJ did was reckless and foolish. That doesn’t make him guilty or a bad person, it’s just sensibly recognising the issues. He should have set boundaries to protect him and others. Him having no nefarious intent has nothing to do with it really, as you know, in the eyes of others, him saying it’s loving didn’t matter one bit.

      As for what he should have done when these children pestered? He should have said no. There were so, so many safeguarding measures he could have taken and didn’t, and that’s really tragic.

      Reply
    1. Azmat Mahmood

      Who are you talking to? IThe fans or Q and Jamon because if you’re talking about the fans I completely agree…

      Reply
  3. Steven Hodges

    This aspect of Michael’s life was so complicated and involved so many people that I am not surprised if there will be some discrepancies with the facts “hammer”. If yours are true, thank you for pointing the all out. Maybe you should have also been on this one too 🙂

    It is always important to get as much truth and proof out there of Michael’s innocence as so many people just make up their mind based on what they see. I will certainly be using this podcast as a way to explain to those that just don’t understand that it is so important to hear as many facts as possible, and also explain the context in which all of the decisions made by Michael were made.

    The fact remains that all of the things mentioned all point to and explain Michael’s innocence, which is what this podcast’s purpose is.

    Great work guys thank you.

    Reply
    1. Hammer

      Yes the camera was not secret. Hamid Moslehi Mj’s videographer was behind it. Bashir believed he can get away with it because it’s Michael Jackson and he was right. He got away with it, ABC rewarded him with a job. The media is corrupt to the core.

      I found it perplexing to say the least that so many people even MJ’s fans just cannot comprehend why kids slept in Mj’s room. It’s not that difficult to understand. You just
      have to put one and one and one and one together.

      1. MJ had a childlike fun personality he was a magnet. Chandler, Robson , Cascios, Arvizo Barnes all asked whether they can sleep in his room. It was their idea not MJ’s we know this from testimonies and interviews.

      2. Other adults would have turned them away because they have all kinds of sexual images associated with this particular piece of furniture. MJ didn’t because he grew up sleeping with others all the time, including unrelated adults. When he asked what’s wrong with sharing your bed he meant every word of it. He just didn’t get why people made a big deal out of this. It’s not the size of the Gary house that matters but the fact that MJ spend 1000s of nights with someone sleeping next to him.

      3. Just because two or more people are sleeping on a bed it doesn’t mean they have physical contact. Brett Barnes made it clear that he slept on one side MJ on the other and that was it. It was the same way with Chandler, Lennon, Simone Jackson , Robson you name it.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOr2NpMIDnU&t=3s
      Cascio said it was like sleeping with your college roommate. Liz Taylor said she was there when MJ and his nephews were all on the same bed and there was nothing touchy feely about it. I’m still waiting for any logical explanation why this is so indefensible.

      4. Another reason why he didn’t turn kids away because he was sensitive to their feelings and didn’t want to make them feel unwanted and unloved like he often felt when his father didn’t want him around. MJ was kneeling beside a grown man holding his hand with tears in his eyes when he got injured on the Scream set. He didn’t care how it looked. No one else reacted this way, only him.

      Michael Jackson held my hand too
      https://veniceartsclub.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/michael-jackson-held-my-hand-too/

      What do you think such a man would do when a cancer kid with bald head repeatedly asks him can I sleep in your bed please? You really think he will think no you can’t because then the outside world would think I’m molesting you? It’s absurd.

      When he said sharing a bed with someone is the most loving thing to do he meant every word of it. Loving thing to do. Not licking thing to do. Says a lot about how fundamentally fucked up this species is that most are unable to understand that because all they can think about is how a molester could use a bed to molest.

      MJ didn’t associate bed with sex , didn’t think sharing a bed with a child was sexual and he had every right to think that way. There is nothing more to it.

      Reply
    2. Hammer

      Yes the camera was not secret. Hamid Moslehi Mj’s videographer was behind it. Bashir believed he can get away with it because it’s Michael Jackson and he was right. He got away with it, ABC rewarded him with a job. The media is corrupt to the core.

      I found it perplexing to say the least that so many people even MJ’s fans just cannot comprehend why kids slept in Mj’s room. It’s not that difficult to understand. You just
      have to put one and one and one and one together.

      1. MJ had a childlike fun personality he was a magnet. Chandler, Robson , Cascios, Arvizo Barnes all asked whether they can sleep in his room. It was their idea not MJ’s we know this from testimonies and interviews.

      2. Other adults would have turned them away because they have all kinds of sexual images associated with this particular piece of furniture. MJ didn’t because he grew up sleeping with others all the time, including unrelated adults. When he asked what’s wrong with sharing your bed he meant every word of it. He just didn’t get why people made a big deal out of this. It’s not the size of the Gary house that matters but the fact that MJ spend 1000s of nights with someone sleeping next to him.

      3. Just because two or more people are sleeping on a bed it doesn’t mean they have physical contact. Brett Barnes made it clear that he slept on one side MJ on the other and that was it. It was the same way with Chandler, Lennon, Simone Jackson , Robson you name it.
      youtube.com/watch?v=UOr2NpMIDnU&t=3s
      Cascio said it was like sleeping with your college roommate. Liz Taylor said she was there when MJ and his nephews were all on the same bed and there was nothing touchy feely about it. I’m still waiting for any logical explanation why this is so indefensible.

      4. Another reason why he didn’t turn kids away because he was sensitive to their feelings and didn’t want to make them feel unwanted and unloved like he often felt when his father didn’t want him around. MJ was kneeling beside a grown man holding his hand with tears in his eyes when he got injured on the Scream set. He didn’t care how it looked. No one else reacted this way, only him.

      Michael Jackson held my hand too
      veniceartsclub.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/michael-jackson-held-my-hand-too

      What do you think such a man would do when a cancer kid with bald head repeatedly asks him can I sleep in your bed please? You really think he will think no you can’t because then the outside world would think I’m molesting you? It’s absurd.

      When he said sharing a bed with someone is the most loving thing to do he meant every word of it. Loving thing to do. Not licking thing to do. Says a lot about how fundamentally fu**d up this species is that most are unable to understand that because all they can think about is how a molester could use a bed to molest.

      MJ didn’t associate bed with sex , didn’t think sharing a bed with a child was sexual and he had every right to think that way. There is nothing more to it.

      Reply
    3. AdminQ

      Thank you Steven. One thing that impressed us most about this podcast was it is unprecedented. Yes there are books, blogs, articles and YT, but no one has ever complied all this into one easily consumed package before. Amazing accomplishment. [-Q]

      Reply
  4. Steven Hodges

    Minor thing… at 1:29 I don’t think that Michael’s camera was secretly filming, as the rebuttal video said that it was not a secret camera? Someone might be able to clarify this? Which makes it even weirder that Bashir should edit his in such a way knowing the interviews were being recorded by Michael’s own camera. Very strange.

    Reply
  5. Raj

    Great episode guys.

    Ryan and Charlie have done a brilliant job in breaking down the 2 trials into simple, easily digestible bit of work.

    I was always hoping that there’d be a show on the trials like this that broke down the minutiae and gave the critical evidence as talking points.

    Well done by the MJCast for doing this simulcast.

    Reply
  6. Steven Hodges

    Some more of my opinions!:

    Around 2:43 Written messages saying “Children are sweet”, “Children are innocent” my answer to this is that if you believe in something so much, NEVER EVER give up in what you believe in, even if it kills you. If you give in and say that you will no longer do something so innocent and pure, because someone told you to, what is the point of even living? He even said in interviews that he would slit his wrists before he would ever hurt a child. Childhood was the ultimate goal to Michael and it made him what he was and he achieved it, right up until the end with his Children’s hospital idea on tape.

    Around 2:45 I feel again that there is a deep misunderstanding of what Michael stood for. The answer to the Worlds problems ARE children. If the World was only full of children, there would be very few problems. Adults have had years to figure it out and continuously fail. I don’t believe for one second that Michael ACTUALLY thought an army of kids with daffodils would help end wars. It is symbolic and the problem these days is that people just don’t understand these messages from Michael. Above all I think that this opinion reflects badly on ALL OF US, NOT Michael.

    My answer to ANY people out there, fans or otherwise, that do not understand Michael’s connection with children and how important they are to support and to love is “You just don’t get it do you”, and to me that is the real, real shame about all of this.

    Reply
    1. Aloha

      I’m going to be pretty blunt here but I mean well and I hope you don’t take offence, although this quote

      ” I don’t believe for one second that Michael ACTUALLY thought an army of kids with daffodils would help end wars. It is symbolic ”

      I do agree with.

      ” If the World was only full of children, there would be very few problems.”

      Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? Seen how children can bully others at school? Seen how many children do terrible things just like adults? I think the point is that he idealised them as some level of perfection when that just isn’t realistic or true. Rose tinted glasses as it were. Children can save the world if they are raised right and go on to do great things. To believe they are inherently perfect (which I think he did) is false and illogical.

      ” if you believe in something so much, NEVER EVER give up in what you believe in, even if it kills you. If you give in and say that you will no longer do something so innocent and pure, because someone told you to, what is the point of even living?”

      It did kill him. Literally. 3 children fatherless partly because of his obsessive belief in children and idealisation of them. He had a totally warped view of childhood and children, and indeed their place in “real life”. I always remember him bemoaning to Bashir that parents had to go to their “day jobs” and how awful that was, no, that was real life, he was the one who didn’t “get it”.

      It had to stop. He was accused of child molestation, the most serious of offences, it was time to give it up after 93. I don’t believe in backing down in the face of adversity either, but there is a limit to that, and he reached it. After that mess, he had a wife and two stepchildren to care for, then he had his own children to care for, he had responsibilities, people relying on him, and he put them at risk, and that wasn’t ok.

      There’s that story about Lisa Marie allegedly losing it at MJ and saying he was selfish, and for all his loveliness and generosity, I have to say, regarding some aspects of his life, I can’t disagree with her. This is one of them.

      I understand MJ’s views on kids, his connection with them, the whole shtick, Peter Pan and his lost boys etc, the need for a family of his own (and I always think he was taking on the whole family too, not just the child he made friends with, hijacking in a way tbh). It’s very easy to comprehend to me anyway, but that doesn’t mean it was healthy (although I don’t believe it was sexual or he had any nefarious intent at all) or clever or ok.

      On the Peter Pan note, there are alternate theories to that story that are not all sunshine and rainbows and make good points that somewhat feature in MJ’s life. I might not be articulating myself very well here but I’ve always thought to read Peter Pan in the undisneyfied way and it’s darker origins is to understand MJ that bit better. Again, I don’t mean this as an insult to him, I just think it’s interesting. I feel personally, that despite his obvious love for the story, that he didn’t really get the breadth of it.

      MJ needed help and to be frank it’s exactly this enabling attitude that caused so many problems.

      None if this is designed to be an insult towards MJ (or you, at all), it’s just an alternate view on understanding how what happened to him happened. I think it’s all extremely complicated and it could be talked about and written about for hours and hours and we’ll never get to the bottom of it really.

      I must totally disagree with you about fans “not getting it” being the real shame of this tragedy. The REAL shame here is that PP&B don’t have a Dad anymore and that a mans life was cut short, a mother had to bury her son, the repercussions of this have been horrific, especially for Paris. To say it’s us with the problem when the fallout from these accusations was so huge is frankly, lunacy.

      End rant (sorry, I really do mean all of this with love <3).

      Reply
    2. Ryan Michaels

      Steven Hodges, I’m going to reply to your post line by line. Your sentence will be first and then my commentary will be underneath it.

      “Around 2:43 Written messages saying “Children are sweet”, “Children are innocent” my answer to this is that if you believe in something so much, NEVER EVER give up in what you believe in, even if it kills you.”
      – Horrible advice. Why would you advise that? Some crazy religious people have sincerely believed that they could handle poisonous snakes because it says so in iron-aged texts. And so they’ve handled poisonous snakes, gotten bitten, fatally poisoned, and died. What they believed was not healthy and it resulted in their death. *BELIEF* is not a virtue. *TRUTH* is a virtue. Hitler never gave up in what he believed even though it ended up killing him, is that virtuous to you?

      “If you give in and say that you will no longer do something so innocent and pure, because someone told you to, what is the point of even living?”
      – In Michael’s case he wouldn’t have risked his children losing their father when he was taken to prison had he been found guilty. You’re writing as though his practice of sleeping in bed with children and/or the same room was a necessity as is breathing air.

      “He even said in interviews that he would slit his wrists before he would ever hurt a child.”
      – Not the point. Again, Charlie and I both came to the same conclusion in the podcast, which is that he was innocent. That doesn’t mean his practices of sleeping with children that weren’t his were wise. It was ungodly stupid and unnecessary.

      “Childhood was the ultimate goal to Michael and it made him what he was and he achieved it, right up until the end with his Children’s hospital idea on tape.”
      – “Childhood” can’t be the ultimate goal for an adult who isn’t Benjamin Button. What Michael achieved was his own life being nearly completely destroyed as a result of bad choices.

      “Around 2:45 I feel again that there is a deep misunderstanding of what Michael stood for.”
      – We weren’t in the slightest bit confused as to what he stood for. This is a common thinking error. People will say, “You don’t understand” when the other party doesn’t agree. No, believe me, I get what he thought as he advertised it constantly, but that doesn’t mean I agree his practices were wise.

      “The answer to the Worlds problems ARE children.”
      – Nonsensical.

      “If the World was only full of children, there would be very few problems.”
      – Because everyone would likely be dead. If everyone on earth except for people 13 and younger disappeared tomorrow I can’t even begin to imagine how horrific that would be for the kids left behind. It is wildly irrational to think that if the world was full of children there would be very few problems. When someone would need surgery who would be able to do that? Who would be able to manufacture and produce everything we’re familiar with in today’s world that gives us a decent standard of life?

      “Adults have had years to figure it out and continuously fail.”
      – And continuously succeed as well.

      “I don’t believe for one second that Michael ACTUALLY thought an army of kids with daffodils would help end wars.”
      – It’s hard telling to what extent he truly held beliefs similar to that. It was played off very sincerely on stage, but when you stop to think, the concept is so simplistically bizarre that it could only come from someone who has idealized children and is not thinking in terms of reality. I think Michael sincerely wished all wars could end and would’ve been motivated to give us his ideas on how that could be achieved, and as he said many times without any real explanation, the answer was “children”.

      “It is symbolic and the problem these days is that people just don’t understand these messages from Michael.”
      – It’s not that we don’t understand his message as it pertains to the importance of what “the whole world should do” in sleeping in bed with children, it’s that we don’t think his message makes sense or holds up when put to basic scrutiny.

      “Above all I think that this opinion reflects badly on ALL OF US, NOT Michael.”
      – Nope.

      “My answer to ANY people out there, fans or otherwise, that do not understand Michael’s connection with children and how important they are to support and to love is “You just don’t get it do you”, and to me that is the real, real shame about all of this.”
      – So if we acknowledge that Michael Jackson had an unhealthy obsession with children, that somehow = we don’t understand that it’s important for children to be loved and supported. This is insane. The concept that some people “don’t get” is that if Michael had set some healthy boundaries such as not ever being alone in his bed/bedroom with other people’s children, he wouldn’t have risked (or put his family at risk) being locked away and possibly dying in prison. This is really serious and you don’t seem to understand the gravity of how serious it is that he, as Charlie said, indulged in his obsession and didn’t seem to learn until a trial forced him to. He’s lucky. Very, very lucky. And he’s lucky in spite of his actions, not because of them.

      Reply
  7. Aloha

    Wow, I can’t believe how controversial this ep has been.

    For those who don’t get why the bed thing is a problem, a few things.

    1 – When someone is accused of a crime, you need to look for motive, means and opportunity. If you are sleeping with children, alone, at night, when they’re vulnerable (and they are, in PJ’s in close proximity to an unrelated adult), and you have a house that’s very attractive to them, that gives you the means, and the opportunity to do such a thing. He didn’t do it, BUT, to law enforcement and outsiders, it looks really, really dicey.

    2 – Boundaries. Children need to understand healthy boundaries, just because Michael wasn’t going to do anything to the kids, that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t have. By showing these kids that it’s ok to be off, sequestered, with an adult, in a vulnerable position, he wasn’t exactly setting them up to be safe with others.

    It’s all a bit like how a teacher hugging a child isn’t allowed, not because anyone is going to hurt anyone, but it can lead to misunderstandings, and it teaches the child that it’s ok for an authority figure to have close physical contact. Given how many genuine predators take jobs around kids, it’s a dangerous precedent to set really.

    3 – Misunderstandings. How many times have any of us slept in a bed with a friend, on a plane next to someone and woken up with our arm over them, right up close or leaning on their shoulder or whatever? An arm being positioned somewhere in sleep for example could lead to a gross misunderstanding. Lets just say for example if he had been sleeping in a bed with a child, and in sleep, TOTALLY ACCIDENTALLY had his arm across them near their crotch and their parent had walked in to wake them up and seen that, what then? Or the child had felt they were being touched? Do we still think bed sharing was smart? Endless opportunities for misunderstandings and accidents here.

    4 – MJ making himself vulnerable. Like my first point, a child in that position with MJ gave the perfect scenario for him to be accused in.

    It’s not about people thinking bed = sex, it’s all the other stuff that goes with that. People will say that “well in other places xyz isn’t a problem”, I would rebut with asking how good sexual abuse and false allegation safeguarding is in those places. Rules and boundaries are created for a reason, to keep kids and adults safe, not just to appease cultural prudishness.

    Going on now but I’m sure you’ll get my points. None of the above is any kind of diss and I must make myself clear that I don’t believe for a second MJ was into kids sexually or had any nefarious intent at all. Just my thoughts on the matter.

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  8. Steven Hodges

    It is so difficult to portray what one believes is the right thing over the internet, so what I will say is that of course you cannot apply my opinions to everything! I am talking about innocence and love. To be honest I wasn’t intending to be very deep at all, but it is good that we are all so passionate about how Michael lived his life. 🙂

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  9. Des

    I have listened all your episodes from the start, and loved every single one of them,some more than others and sometimes I don’t agree but it’s okay we can agree to disagree. I want to tell you that am a fan of Michael’s for more than thirty years,never ever cross my mind that Michael was a pedophile,never for a minute and the thing is two years ago I didn’t know what I know now because I didn’t have internet. I am a mother and a grandmother. I grew up in village small community about a thousand people and I tell you something a child was every body’s business you know what they say it takes a village to bring up a child. I don’t expect you to understand you have to live it to understand it.These days you have your own bedroom before your were born,your have your shower your own tv you have everything (material)but not happiness.We shared our homes our food our beds (not every body had a bed) those were the innocent years. I have thirty five first cousins all of us for different reasons we share our bedrooms usually male all together and females all together. We were all the same,we had sleepovers with our friends and we always had an adult because we were scared from gosts. I understand where Michael is coming from and I understand exchacly what he was saying.This man he exposed himself to so much suffering willingly by visiting hospitals and orphanages and he was so spiritual that we the rest of us we were expected him once he’s out from those places to switch off how can you forget how can you ignore it when you know you’ve got the power to do something about it,so when things get tough we walk away? It’s us that we can not make our selfs think that it’s not all about sex and yes you can share your bed with children with the sexiest woman or man and nothing will happen if your heart is not there and your brain it’s on the right place.These kids they had mothers and fathers and their were like a family to him am sure you know all about it ,the Cassio family no matter what happened after he died he loved them and they loved him back, Karen Faye same they let their children stay in his bedroom,I think it’s very degrading to these families the way some of us think these are the people who new him best.he dint just pick anyone and put them in his bed.look the video with Opera Winfrey every body sitting or lying on his bed so comfortably wile is standing.What about if it was say Madonna and do the same thing will she get the same treatment? I don’t think so. I feel sad because of some sick people out there ,man paying the price.Many man who are genuinely love children they sometimes hold back showing effect ion even to their own children There is a shortage of male teachers in our country and that is the mane reason,it’s so easy to accuse someone ,and am not saying it’s not happening it’s an epidemic but no pedophile will parade his love for the children of the world so publicly.I know what you saying and I understand that he should have protected himself but Michael made it his mission from a very young age .That is a problem in our younger generation they giving up very easily they can’t handle life’s pressures very well and end up on drugs or alcohol or killing them selfs or others.For me Michael was and his one of my biggest inspiration and one of the reasons was he didn’t give up helping not just children but to make our world a better place.You mention the children whith the daffodils from heal the world short movie,and you made a comment that as if the children whith daffodils will stop the wore,I see children running care free with out the threat of wore or violence,and that’s what I like the world to be Peace and harmony,can we do it or we just all give up.I walk with my grandson in the park I have a big umbrella with me to defend my self in case of something happens,and he’s never more than two feet away from me,but when I was growing up i was running everywhere free. And then you mention Blanket,honestly I believe we have to stop that he made a mistake he apologised and am sure afterwards he would have drove himself crazy thinking about it not for what he done but what about if something happened and he dropped the baby.We all done stupid things and we still do but we get away because we are not Michael Jackson.You know how many children die every year in their own driveways from the parents or in hot cars or swimming pools!He couldn’t getaway with anything. It’s the price of fame. Everyone is suspicious about everything,the world has changed but if we aloud our selfs to be a little bit just a little bit like Michael Jackson even if we come across as naive the world will be a better place for all of us. Thank for all you do.LOVE&PEACE

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  10. Hammer

    Problem is the rule that adults should not share a bed with unrelated children does not keep anyone safe. The reason why people associate bedsharing with molestation is not because frequently sleeping in a bed with kids is common modus operandi for acquaintance molesters, it’s not (molesters usually are interested in sex alone not sleeping) but because their mind if filled with images where people have sex in a bed and when they hear a man is sleeping with a child their imagination runs away with them. Which is bullshit. A kid sitting next to a molester on a sofa is no less in danger than him sleeping on the molester’s bed. And they make an exception for relatives because they assume people cannot possibly have the same feelings toward unrelated kids as they have toward their own family members. Which is just more bullshit. MJ clearly treated the Cascios or the Barnes or Nisha Kataria as family and he never apologized for saying that you have to love all children equally, related or not. It’s also bullshit because many molesters are relatives. Taj Jackson was molested by an uncle with whom he never slept. He did sleep in Mj’s room however who never molested him. Corey Fledman was molested by pedos who didn’t have sleepovers with him. He had sleepovers with MJ who never molested him.

    Logically, all those who object against adult-child sleepovers because molestation could happen should also object against any unnecessary situation where an adult or even older child have access to kids because molestation can happen day and night, in cars and locker rooms, in kitchens and classrooms, in offices even on airplanes.

    The fact is the only thing that keeps children safe if they are not with molesters. And the only thing which protects adults from being falsely accused of child molestation if they are not with kids. Clyde Ray Spencer Tonya Craft, Kevin Clash, Cliff Richard Kelly Michaels Ray BuckeyThe San Antonio Four didn’t share a bed with kids they were still falsely accused of molestation.

    MJ became a target for false accusations the moment when he spent time with a child.
    Any child in any situation where he was alone with them or even when a third party like Star Arvizo or Aldo Cascio was there. Jason Francia never shared a bed with him and still found a way to accuse him. Arvizo never shared a bed with him and found a way to accuse him. Ex employees accused him of molesting kids in the shower, in the Jacuzzi, in the arcade, no bed or sleeping was involved. Star Arvizo accused him of molesting him in a golf cart! So even having kids in his golf cart compromised him.

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  11. Hammer

    “When someone is accused of a crime, you need to look for motive, means and opportunity. If you are sleeping with children, alone, at night, when they’re vulnerable (and they are, in PJ’s in close proximity to an unrelated adult), and you have a house that’s very attractive to them, that gives you the means, and the opportunity to do such a thing. He didn’t do it, BUT, to law enforcement and outsiders, it looks really, really dicey”

    Except common sense dictates that MJ’s sleepovers in Neverland, Hayvenhurst and in the parents homes did NOT create means and opportunity for molestation, and nobody whose motive is molestation would would waste tens of millions to create Neverland , the ultimate place where pedophile especially a black eccentric pedophile would have been easily caught, exposed, reported and prosecuted. PJ, close proximity or being unrelated are not relevant in this case because the sheer number and circumstances of Mj’s sleepovers make it clear that he could not be a molester unless you believe he was both the most brazen, dumb AND luckiest serial molester ever, the chance of which is zero.

    Here’s a few things law enforcement and outsiders ignore:

    1. No pedophile, no matter how rich, ever build a place like Neverland, which means no pedophile ever needed a place like that to have kids in their home. Why would Michael Jackson of all people, who had a magnetic personality to a point that kids followed him like ducks and who had fans under 14 all over the world who like Chandler, Safechuck, Arvizo Robson actively sought to become his friends need an amusement park, a zoo, an arcade, a movie theater, two trains, an Indian village? MJ spent most of his time with the Chandlers not in Neverland but in Monaco, Florida, New York, Las Vegas, his LA condo and in June’s and Evan’s homes. Take away Neverland do you think the Chandlers woudln’t have approached him, ask him to give a call to Jordan and travel with him and invite him to their homes? Sandusky and Barry Bennell had ordinary houses with a few games a few animals in there and that was enough to keep the boys there. But Michael Jackson needed all that stuff to achieve the same? Absurd.

    2. Neverland had dozens of employees including mandatory reporters like firemen and policemen like Brian Barron. Every single one of those employees could have reported him to child services or the police any day. No child molester would waste millions of dollars to create a place like that when he doesn’t even need it! His maids had keys to his room. His security chief Mike Leparuque who was a in the LASD reserve had a key to his room and he could go in there any time he wanted. Why would a molester give the key to the very room when he wants to molest to anyone let alone to mothers like Blanca Francia and Adrian McManus who had young boys or a former policeman like Leparuque? Imagine Marc Collins Rector hiring a policemen to guard his house and asking him to maintain a log about which boy is coming and going there. Absurd.

    3. MJ invited the parents to Neverland who were never excluded from his room. Kit Culkn wrote in his book one of the reasons why he didn’t suspect pedophilia in Neverland was that he was always around and one misstep and he would have broken MJ’s neck and every other bone in his body. No molester would invite fathers and mothers to the very place where they want to molest their kids especially not hundreds of times!
    June Chandler, Joy Robson, Lisbeth Barnes all testified that they could walk in MJ’s room
    day and night, anytime. So MJ didn’t show those kids “that it’s ok to be off, sequestered, with an adult, in a vulnerable position”. In Neverland they were surrounded by adults including their parents.

    4. Santa Barbara is overwhelmingly white, conservative with a bunch of rednecks in the sherrif department and the DAs office. But we are supposed to believe a black pedophile would choose THAT place of all places to build his boy trap and molest boys? Michael could have lived in 1000s of other places in the world. But because he was a criminal he choose
    a white conservative county in the US where if accused he would be most likely prosecuted. Imagine Afrika Bambaataa searching for a home and choosing one in Tom Sneddon’s and Jim Thomas’s backyard. Absurd. If MJ had been a pedophile most likely he wouldn’t have lived in the US at all let alone in Santa Barbara.

    5. Before Neverland MJ lived in Hayvenhurst. Plenty of kids spent time with him there too relatives and neighbors and friends alike. It was like a smaller version of Neverland with animals, arcade games, candy room. movie theater. But MJ didn’t live there alone. So anyone who believes that Neverland created the means and opportunity for molestation should explain what the heck was Hayvenhurst all about? They believe MJ wanted to molest boys in the very place where his father very religious mother two sisters brothers, sister and brother in law lived?? Imagine Jimmy Saville having his mother father sisters brother in his home where he wanted to molest kids. Absurd.

    6. MJ slept many time in the father’s and mother’s homes. How is that “be off, and sequestered”? The Chandlers the Safechucks and Joy Robson all could walk in the room
    any time they wanted in fact Evan says he did just that. Why would a molester
    repeatedly take that risk on top of risking to leave DNA evidence behind on all those beds?
    I can’t think of any serial molester who routinely sleeps with kids in the parents’ homes. It’s just absurd.

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